Layman in need of objective assessment

Discussion in 'Geothermal Heat Pump Applications' started by Ryan Caudill, Sep 17, 2015.

  1. Yeah we are not friends because of your ignorant attitude and aggression. Plus your pompous attitude that you know everything. Your math is way off as you don't read how we are saving the client so much in usage all your focused on is proving me wrong which is not the case here. And since you don't believe me why not call the distillery and ask to speak to the owner. Then simply ask them how much their energy bills run. It's that simple
  2. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Yes, I give you that you said monthly, not annually, but it does not change that you overstated the potential savings by roughly 300% between electric and propane. Simply multiply everything by a factor of 12. Nothing else changes. If you have other efficiencies designed in, such as not running the full load 24/7, and having 3 boilers in stages, to better match the load, that can be done with LP as well as electricity. nor has it anything to do with geothermal.Boiler staging to match fluctuating demand is common practice, and not very ingenious. That is what boiler stage controllers are for. Done in many applications and common practice in distilleries. Just because your customer had a badly inefficient designed system before, does not make you the only guy in the U.S. to understand that distilleries are energy intensive.
    Again, running a 2.4 million BTU boiler 24/7 will consume roughly 231,000 gallon costing you $667,000 annually, not the $144,000 ($12,000 x 12 months). So that number is also off by 460%.
    I have customers running $65,000 of electricity consumption annually, and they get some discounts, usually 20-30% compared to regular residential rates, but not more. That is why high energy consumers usually make their own power, so they don't have to use the grid.

    Coming to the claimed geo innovation, you also have a 20 ton geo system for chilling, and you make 500-800 gallons of hot water (not sure if that is via geo? per day?).
    Is there anything else what makes you an innovator compared to all others here, or in the whole U.S.?
  3. heatoldhome

    heatoldhome Geo Student Forum Leader

    I'm not taking sides here but I will say I work for a company that uses a large amounts of electricity. 480 3 phase

    They once told me we pay about 4.5 cents a kwh. And it verys slightly based on our peak load demend. We are also in a peak demand shut down program.
    Mark Custis likes this.
  4. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Allowing shut down reduces cost.

    Doc? Do you know of a 20 ton geo chiller? 4 fives, 2 tens maybe.
  5. geoxne

    geoxne Active Member Forum Leader

  6. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader


    I think too small, but I like staging. I have never meet a system that needs 120% 24/7.
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2015
  7. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    That is usually the going rate for the power itself, but is usually does not include delivery via the grid, which is usually twice as much. And you usually get 2 cents/kwh credit for demand management programs. We can check high usage commercial rates in Virginia.
    Our spirit here would have to have a rate down to 3.5 cents/kwh to make his math work, including all fees and charges. Highly unlikely
  8. They are paying at 6.5 cents per kW. But you keep looking over the entire effect of going from one central boiler system running 24 hours to three separate point of use electric steam boilers so the total used btuh are much less than the inefficient designs that everyone else designs these distilleries.
    After all that what we are arguing here.
    That we are designing the most efficient distilleries in this country.
    I will kindly continue to make those statements until you find me another one company including yours are producing commercial spirits with a more efficient method.
    So I am not hear to continue to argue.
    I know what I am saving my customers and I know how we are doing it if you like it or not. So let's just move on.
    I also would love to have you down to seriously check this out.
    It is a phenomenal project with so many complexities to the entire design and engineering.
    I am just proud of it and didn't expect so much B/S about it.
    Heck I thought GEO GURUS were going to love it.
    But it seems as if you guys hate it.
    Sorry about the ruffled feathers.
    There is truly no BS behind what we are doing as we have several of these projects.
    So no matter how you like it, it is much cheaper paying the electric company 3-4K per month for entire operations of the facility versus 12-14 k per month in L.P per month alone.
    If you visit them they will confirm everything that has been stated. I promise that.
    I can get you a private tour.
    But it is useless to continue to battle over something that you haven't totally wrapped your mind around.
    I am interested in actually speaking to you in regards so that we can actually converse about this project.
    mtrentw likes this.
  9. Yes staging gas boilers are things I have been doing for 25 years so I don't need lessons on that. But you are very incorrect about the distillery industry as we are actively in. There are little to no standards in the designs from most mechanical contractors. So if you think our industry is wild enough then welcome to a new nightmare with the highly unregulated distillery industry.
    The answer to you 20 ton geo heat pump chiller =FHP
    And my numbers from the boiler was with my loads and staging of the boilers for the 12k per month on L.p gas.
    But you didn't bother to ask. You keep just jumping to conclusions without talking about them.
    And yes then comes in the chiller portion of the job.
    Once you have digested the energy savings on the steam side then we can talk about the best part of the project. The geothermal chilled water system that feeds a very consistent and constant flow of chilled water for the absolute best alcohol spirits manufacturing available.
    It's that simple
    And once you get a chance to come down to Virginia I personally invite you for a tour
  10. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Lets do this slowly (since I am an idiot) and lets see if we can agree on some numbers. For your claimed baseline, running a 2.4 million BTUh boiler with propane 24 /7, are how many gallons of propane a month? And how many $$$ per month at $2.89?
  11. Look I apologize for calling you an idiot. It was inappropriate. With our figures they were back 2 years ago and it was based on l.p with the boiler staged but always consuming for different schedules of processes. The boiler still needs to maintain itself even when staged and with 3-4 major loads operating at different schedules and days of the week it meant running one central boiler that again was staged.
    So with the electric being much more efficient and quicker to make steam and cool down after the processes we can shut them down thus saving so much more energy as well at a much lower rate. I know my figures and it took more than just sitting down one time and running quick math based on btuh out of L.P.
    The entire system is actually performing to the standards that it was designed to and is exceeding them so that I am proud of. In the design process in my bid I disclosed all of my ROI to the client based off of this being the actual first geothermal designed distillery in the country. Those numbers were very close as per my pre bid numbers. So I know what my math for the entire project told us and I know that's what we are delivering.
    So that's the best I can help you with on that one.
    Again I do apologize
    Actually glad to see other people as passionate as I am about my work.
  12. They also don't run all month long. But when they do they hit it hard with millions of btuh to generate and then we haven't even talked about the millions of btuh we are needing to get rid of.
    But that's for another day.
  13. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    All right, apology accepted.
    So someone designed a very inefficient solution based on LP, and you came up with a more efficient one which is electric.
    I guess my other point is that electricity is usually much more costly, and less efficient, account for inefficiencies in the power generation, and grid losses etc.
    So a gal of LP with a 76% efficient boiler 91,000 x 0.76 = 69,160. So each 69,160 going into the water costing you $2.89.
    An electric boiler at 95% efficiency would use 72,800 btus of source fuel for that, or 21.34 KW, costing you also $2.89 at 13.54 cents/kwh.

    In other words, in this application propane and electricity is cost equivalent at $2.89 for LP and 13.54 cents/kwh for electricity.

    Since the savings you are describing seem to come from better boiler staging and better boiler responsiveness to match you fluctuating demands, this is all about LP and electric boilers, I am still not sure what makes this the first geothermal designed distillery in the country. The 20 ton geosystem for chilled water, and the 500-800 gal of hot water you are making for other applications?
  14. Yes the heating side is one element that we have established.
    So yes this is the only functioning geothermal distillery in the country. Well we are finishing a few other projects. So maybe not for long.
    So that's what makes it the only.
    We are talking of legal production mind you.
  15. No one said it is rocket science. And it seems as if it isn't rocket science to you guys and that's great. That's why I am here.
    We are just laying the way for new innovation and energy efficient designs to truly lower energy cost in this energy intensive business. That's all we are saying.
    And as of now it is the truth.
    It was amazing to me how inefficient designs these distilleries are paying these companies to install these things using and wasting so much energy. It really floors you when you start looking at raw BTUH numbers.
    We are the only company fully designing and installing these distilleries from the ground up in all phases utilizing Mother Earth for them to produce some of the purest alcohol out there.
    It is very precise, constant, steady flow of chilled water. That's a key element for them to produce premium products.
    So when we do see that we are not the only game in town I guess we will then need to reevaluate our wording.
    And yes electric varies a lot from state to state and portions of the country.
    And yes we toke this from a very poor design to make drastic improvements to save the owner from making a crucial mistake.
    I then thought it would be cool to design the chilled water system utilizing geothermal technology as well as generating a great amount of pre tempered hot water that is later used in their wash down cycles.
    So yes as of now that's why we are sticking to our guns on that statement
    I believe we have earned that right until we are proven wrong.
  16. Which might be soon who knows?

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