Layman in need of objective assessment

Discussion in 'Geothermal Heat Pump Applications' started by Ryan Caudill, Sep 17, 2015.

  1. Ryan Caudill

    Ryan Caudill New Member

    I am currently building a two story 2800 sf home in NE Maryland and am shopping GSHP contractors in my area. I am installing the spray-in cellulose insulation throughout my home and looking for an objective expert opinion for size of unit. I have been told I might need two units or one unit with multiple zones. Id like to know your opinions on what the best fit for me would be. Please help!
  2. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Size depends on the heating and cooling loads. One needs to know that first.

    I like zoning for comfort control. I also like water delivered heating and cooling. It takes up way less space in the home.

  3. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    New built spray foam house with 2800 sqf should be doable with a single heatpump, with or without optional zoning.
    Are you looking for forced air or radiant/hydronic? One story or two stories? What is your Zip code/location?
  4. I think he stated spray in cellulose not foam. Zoning is always a cheaper method but not the most efficient. However with the proper duct sizing and fittings it can be done correctly and balanced throughout the home. We are an HVAC company that does foam spray insulation.
    The best you can do is replace the cellulose with SPF then we could address the mechanical design effectively.
    Check out
  5. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Enough insulation always works. I lived through the two part foam stuff that exploded houses and killed or injured occupants with the off gassed VOCs.

    Enough R will always work.

  6. Yeah as well as asbestos and even your fiberglass you are breathing in your home and HVAC air handler causes cancer today. That's why every home needs today's SPF installed. A lot more healthier environment.
  7. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Prove your healthy off gassing.
  8. Off gassing is minimal now. Like most, everything evolves over time. Well ventilated and properly installed SPF is the key to minimal off gassing. Like everything there is a science to the installation. Not anyone can buy a $100,000 rig and install SPF safely.
    Never seen deaths from off gassing. We have seen millions of deaths from fiberglass insulation from lung cancer over the years. the older foams had very bad flame spread rates.
  9. Off gassing is gone in 8-10 hours, forever once properly installed. That's the problem.
    Mixing ratios
  10. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Show me.

    I rarely be-leave the latest and greatest.
  11. I understand it seems to be a personal thing or something. Nothing wrong with opinions as we are all wrong on occasion and are entitled to each.
  12. Plus I have never seen exploding homes from SPF ever. A few have burned at a very high rate but exploding.
    Needless to say way over exaggerated.
    Come on what kind of geothermal forum is this.
  13. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    The kind of forum where guys like you making all kinds of out of line claims have come and go. Sorry to be that frank, but you are making quite an entry.
  14. Proof is in the pudding my friend.
    I really dont care if you like me or what I have to say because I work every day to save my clients money.
    After all that's what they pay me to do.
    How about look at your friends false allegations against the foam industry that he doesn't fully understand.
    How about becoming a SPF contractor and walk in their shoes before you make false claims.
    Sorry to bring innovative thinking and industry proven products to a forefront. You guys have made a living here I can tell, I am not here to steal your thunder or your business here in any way. I am here to show people how innovative this industry can be if people take off their blinders. Sorry to offend you but I am here to stay with a positive and innovative drive
    Have a great day
  15. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    That is the whole point. So far you just keep repeatedly telling us how great you are, without providing any proof for such greatness. Geo is a field which is data driven, and follows the laws of physics. So why don't you provide any evidence that what you are saying is true. After all, according to your website, you are "... the only mechanical contractor in the United States to understand that the distillery industry is an energy intensive business."
    With such an unmatched understanding, please, enlighten us!
  16. Yes sir so when we looked at the process of distilling spirits, I noticed the major demand for heating BTUH and cooling BTUH over very intensive time period. So I knew there was a much more efficient way to design and engineer and install a system that truly does save energy. So we ran the numbers of the way everyother distillery is designed and engineered this system using 20 ton Geothermal heat pump to provide the constant chilled water required to run very high proof alcohol. I also designed the system to provide a 500-800 gallons of hot water that is only used for the wash down cycle and the end of each batch run. I then saw the great loss on the boiler side as the other contractors were using 2MTUH L.P fired steam boiler at a rate of $2.89 per gallon. So once we did the math we noticed around $12,000- $15,000 per month in operating cost. So again I put together a package to highlight using 3 high efficiency electric steam boilers on 3 phase electricity. Their average utility bills are averaging $3000- $4000 per month.
    I hope this sheds a little light that we are good guys.
    So yes we are the only people in that industry that does recognize the wasteful amounts of energy used in that process everyday. We now have a great hold on designing and engineering very efficient industrial distilleries using Geothermal technologies that are proven and in operation in multiple facilities now.
    So yes until you can lead me to another such place that we have not already worked with, I am making those statements out of great pride of doing whats right and nothing more.
  17. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    So lets see how the math adds up here.

    So you are saying that they were spending around $12,000 (lets take the lower end) with the propane steam boiler at $2.89/gal. Lets assume it is 80% efficient, that means you used 4,152 gal x 0.80 efficiency = 3,321.80 gal of propane for your energy needs (load), which at 91,000 btus/gal are 302,265,600 BTUs, or 88,588.98 KW.
    Now, an electric steam boiler probably running at 95% efficiency, would use 93,252 KW of the same load. At 10.5 cents/kwh in Virginia, that would cost you $9,791 for the same load (again, lower end), which you claim is only $3,000.

    So unless my math has flaws here, your math does not add up, and you claims are grossly overstated. It is simply questionable that you gain much by replacing propane with electric resistance, something I certainly would not be proud of, given that in addition the electricity generation is less than 50% efficient in Virginia, which makes you actually the bad guys, wasting a lot of energy.

    Even if you designed a more efficient system than what you have portrait to us here so far, I am not sure that I would run around and proudly state that I am "... the only mechanical contractor in the United States to understand that the distillery industry is an energy intensive business." But that is a whole other story.....
  18. Well again before you put your foot in your mouth you still dont understand other dynamics to this project. All you can focus on are ways to slander me and my company now with your twisted views. Before you finger point really look at yourself.
    To begin with you lose close to 10% in the production of steam plus the loss in efficiency on using an 80% boiler that usually commisions out at 76-78%. So as you can see how inefficient L.P is to use in these applications. And the great thing is you dont need to be a rocket scientist to do that math.

    We designed this from the stand point that everyone else was using one central boiler to supply 2.4 MBUH to 3 different appliances with 3 different manufacturing schedules. Basically 2.4 million btuh running close to 24 hours a day.
    So we designed Electric stem boilers that operate 98-99% efficient for each independent source needed.
    We then go from sucking down tens of gallons of propane an hour for 24 hours a day for 7 days a week to meet the design schedule. So there is so much more to this project than your closed mind can obviously understand.
    And yes they do have a special commercial rate from our local supplier since we consume so much energy.
    And now Mr. Math wizard you know so much you can figure out that we can now cycle each appliance on a on demand basis and producing steam with in 10 minutes ready to serve the load for a specific time then we cool the boiler down and shut it off again saving time, major energy with much lower loads for a lot less runtime. But you should have known that before again you act like a complete idiot.
    But it seems your good at that. So it is to be expected. So you do the math. And get back to me.
    Yes I am very proud and will continue to set standards that people like like you will only follow. So you can be a complete idiot and analyze anything you want and twist your ways to try to discredit a fabulous project and all I can tell you is your not the one seeing the savings every month so again I truly don't care. Your obviously not worth the energy.
    And one last thing that will really blow your mind is that is the total average including the other parts of the distillery and the heating and cooling and all of the hot water.
    Have a blessed day my friend!
  19. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I absolutely agree with you.

    You don't need to be a rocket scientist to do this math.
    If you loose 10% in the production of steam (yes you go through the phase change) with propane, you also loose 10% in the production of steam with electricity, independent of your energy source.
    So lets redo the math with your numbers. You take the 4,152 gal of propane you are using, and now you multiply it with 76% efficiency, instead of 80%, you now end up with 3,155 gal load annually. Now you add you 10% loss when converting to steam, you add with 2,839.97 gal for your load, at 91,000 but/gal of propane, you have now an annual load of 258,437,270 btus.
    With a 98% efficient electric furnace, you are now using 263,711,500 btus, add to that the 10% loss you claim you have with the conversion to steam (I just take your number for that) you end up with 293012800 btus, or 85,877 KW you are consuming. At 10.5 cents per kWh, you are now paying $9,017.08, still off by over 300%.

    Now you claim you have a special commercial rate from the supplier since you are using so much electric energy. At the $3000 of electric utility costs per year, which is your number, that is $250 a month. I don't know a commercial company which gets an special rate with a $250 a month electricity bill. If it it s commercial company they are subject to higher demand charges when they use it 24/7.
    But you are also now saying that they use 2.4 million BTUs per hour, running 24/7, 7 days a week. Those are 21,024 million Btu/year, or divided by 91,000 BTUs/gal, are 231,032 gallons, costing you $667,685. You have to sell a lot of gin for that. That is quite of from the $12,000 annually you claimed before!

    Again, your math and your numbers could not be further off here, what you are telling us here adds up to nothing but nonsense. This is especially disappointing from the person who claims to be in writing "... the only mechanical contractor in the United States to understand that the distillery industry is an energy intensive business."

    I really don't recall that anybody ever made an entrance here as a newbie as you have.

    I don't think we are friends, for a few reasons:

    1) I respect my friends
    2) My friends are not trying to BS myself and others
    3) My friends usually can do simple math, and at least don't dig themselves deeper in the hole once they are exposed.
    4) My friends do not call me an "complete idiot" twice within the same paragraph....but that is a minor point.
  20. Well you are a complete idiot as I never said annually. These are monthly figures so analyze that my friend.
    Sorry to offend you but why not read the post to its entirety as you obviously don't understand the concept of the design and how we are saving so much energy by using 3 separate machines for on demand steam when needed and not one 2.4mbh central steam boiler running 24 hours a day wasting so much energy. So when we can run only the appliance for the run time needed we drop the energy usage right after we are done. And yes the beauty of this is when it comes time for my client to pay his monthly bills they are 1/3 of what they would have been other wise using L.P gas.
    No matter how you argue, misconstrue and over analyze what I have done you can't discredit the monthly utility bills and an annual savings of $109,000 year.
    So have at it.

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