Is it possible...

Discussion in 'Geothermal Loops' started by wigaloi, Aug 13, 2012.

  1. Calladrilling

    Calladrilling Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I didnt see where you answered my question yet.
    How are the loops tied together now? Reverse return, in series ( from one loops exit into the second loops supply), or parrellel (supply and supply are together, and returns are together)????

    What is it he purging it with? A flush cart i hope.
    I understamd they are seperated into 2 fields.
    1 field does upstairs, and other field does down stairs, is this correct? If so, does either of the floors out perform each other?
  2. wigaloi

    wigaloi Member

    Calladrilling...I'm looking for some photo's of the loop install. I also have a call into the installer. Once I find them or hear back, I'll let you know how the loops are tied together.

    He had a purge cart.

    "1 field does upstairs, and other field does down stairs, is this correct? If so, does either of the floors out perform each other? "

    Yes, that's what made me first think that I had a ground loop problem...either bad circuit or too small. The Upstairs Heatpump outperforms the downstairs heatpump in the winter (there's not a large heating load on it in the winter time) The downstairs heatpump outperforms the upstairs heatpump in the summer (there's not a large cooling load on it)

    Last night, I measured the EWT: Up 105.4* down 69* LWT: UP 109.1 down 74

    So, in the summer the upstairs loop is overheating AND in Winter downstairs loop is too cold.

    Based on what I can figure, :
    1. either 750 ft/ton is not enough loop; ground loops too small
    2. Ground loop is sick...air in loop, loop pressure too low??? I don't know.

    What I do know is that there are enough people that Have working systems, so i'm a bit more optomistic than I have been. As I said earlier, we've actually contemplated taking the geo units out and replacing with high efficiency gas.
  3. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    The loop pressure is not related to loop performance as long as you have 10- 15 lbs.

    Tying the loops together makes a lot of sense to me.

    You just need to put check valves on the lines to each pump so that the flow is forced through the ground loop.

    We always run multiple heat pumps from a common loop.
  4. Calladrilling

    Calladrilling Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    750'/ton is Actually in the high side for loop length.
    I am still leaning towards incorrect header tie in, or incomplete Purging.
    After 2 years the ground probably has settles enough to allow your loops work properly.
    Maybe you should have a different local pro look over the whole system.
    Maybe your flow is off causing the loops to be over powered.
  5. wigaloi

    wigaloi Member

    "Maybe you should have a different local pro look over the whole system."

    Other than this forum, I starting to wonder if any geo pro's really exist. I feel like I know more than anyone that I've spoken to about my problem here locally. (i'm not a know it all either)

    "Maybe your flow is off causing the loops to be over powered."

    Both flow centers have dual pumps. I've played around with running 1, both, push, pull, nothing makes a difference on performance, so I just have 1 pump running at each flow center.
  6. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Sounds to me (and I'm not a loop guy), that maybe only 1/4th of the upper system's loop is in play, or it is horribly undersized

    The low delta T, 4-5*F suggests plenty of water flow.

    I also wonder about ducts and building envelope given the run times and lack of comfort.

    Definitely push for a good energy audit. Freebie by a utility may not suffice. We easily spend 4-8 staff hours on a deep audit for a home with two systems
  7. wigaloi

    wigaloi Member

    Once the loop is buried, is there anything that can be done other than purging the lines to get all circuits involved if the problem is not all of the loop being in play?

    I'm geussing that engineer is correct. My outside air temps are so mild relative to the extremes that you southern and northern folks see. I just can't believe that 750'/ ton in sandy loam is not enough loop.

    I'm trying to get my original installers attention again, but would like to give him some good direction if he can't get there on his own.

    In addition, I'm going to find a good private company for an energy audit. We have closed cell foam in the walls, plenty of cellulose in the attic, but you never know.

    Summer, while not ideal is livable upstairs but I can't bear another winter of my wife telling me how bad an idea this geo was and my girls complaing about how cold they are
  8. wigaloi

    wigaloi Member

    Also, is there a way to tell if a loop is out or o we just surmise that we are not getting full circulation because of lack of loop performance?
  9. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I agree that your loop does not seem to be working properly.

    The first step would to purge with a high pressure, high flow purge cart.

    The second step would be to dig up the manifolds and very flow through each loop.

    Are the loops slinky style?
  10. ChrisJ

    ChrisJ Active Member Forum Leader

    The link you put in earlier didn't work for me, I am re-entering it.

    I have 2000' of 1" straight pipe for 4 tons with no problems. My loop installer had to submit an as built plan of loop field with the towns building dept. Maybe you could find some details on the loop design, pipe size, header configurations, that is if your town required it.

  11. wigaloi

    wigaloi Member

    I hope not, I'm sure the front yard mani is under the driveway
    Yes, slinky
  12. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    What type of manifold?

    Field fabricated or factory made?

    There may be a hidden silver lining in digging up the driveway. You could install a vault and a factory manifold that is serviceable. The trouble will be worth it as your system would work.

    I would like to see the duct work before I called the digger and his jack hammer.

    I would have a lengthy high pressure high volume purge done before digging too. Either way, ever if they keep fracking in my area and someone gives you the gas equipment and puts it in for free, my gut instinct says fix what you have.

    I hope this helps,

  13. wigaloi

    wigaloi Member

    Field fabricated

    You have a much brighter outlook than I do.

    there have been several who have eluded to the ductwork. Is this something I can check by adding up cfm from each supply register and comparing to total output of unit?

    Interesting. I have cheap gas (need to lookup cost/) and cheap elec $.083/kwh. IF the gas remains cheap AND I got a screaming deal on gas equipment and install, you think it would be better to keep geo, considering comfort and cost? You may be right, but I've just bout lost the faith

    Update: I've attempted contact with my initial installer. Only way he would respond was via txt. Said that he would be by the week before last. No show and wont respond now.

    I've been in touch with 2 other geo guys and much of the same. All I know is that if I were this flaky in my biz, I wouldnt eat.

    By the way, if any of you guys are vacationing in the Seattle area, will u please come get me dialed in?
  14. Howard Ek

    Howard Ek Member

    We work in Washington. If you are interested, PM me with your email address & phone. :)
  15. wigaloi

    wigaloi Member

    Just sent you a PM Howard.
  16. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Howard will take good care of you.

  17. zacmobile

    zacmobile Guest

    This may seem silly but looking at one of your photos from you other thread (icing) which I have reattached here it looks like the loop is attached to the load side connections on the heat pump. Are these water to water (TMW) or water to air (TT) units? The partial glimpse in the pic looks like water to water to me in which case the loop should be connected to the bottom connections.

    Or horizontal unit?

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 30, 2012
  18. wigaloi

    wigaloi Member

    Hello Zacmobile, both of my units are water to air.
  19. Calladrilling

    Calladrilling Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Why don't you snap some photos and post them here?
    Maybe there is a glaring issue that stands out that you have overlooked.
    Exhaust all your avenues before digging up the driveway, or removing equipment.
  20. wigalo

    wigalo New Member

    Here are some photos of the up and down unit...let me know if you are looking for something more specific.

    Attached Files:

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